In this episode, Canadian sex therapist and researcher Sarah Hunter Murray joins us to dismantle the myths about male sexuality that are at the root of so much sexual struggle. Her book Not Always In The Mood: The New Science of Men, Sex & Relationships draws from in depth interviews with men to expose the persistent mythology about male sexuality that most of the time goes unquestioned.
You can find more from Sarah Hunter Murray and her book Not Always In The Mood at SarahHunterMurray.com
Transcript of Podcast Episode: Not Always In The Mood, An Interview With Sarah Hunter Murray PhD
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Chris Rose: 00:00 Welcome to Speaking of Sex with The Pleasure Mechanics. This is Chris from pleasuremechanics.com, and on today’s podcast, we have Sarah Hunter Murray, here to talk about the mythologies about male sexuality that are at the heart of so much sexual struggle for men and women alike. Sarah is the author of the new book, Not Always in the Mood: The New Science of Men, Sex, and Relationships.
Chris Rose: 00:30 I was so thrilled to find Sarah Hunter Murray’s book about the myths of male sexuality because I have long said on this podcast that we undersell men. We do men such a disservice when we talk about men’s sexuality as simple, easy, “They’re always in the mood, you just have to stroke them and they’ll get off.”, like “What’s the big deal? They’ll want to have sex with anything that moves.” We act like men are animals instead of the complex human beings we know them to be, and we have not brought ourselves culturally to having a nuanced, intelligent conversation about men’s sexuality, our assumptions about men’s sexuality, and the lived truths in men’s lives. And these are the truths that find themselves in my inbox day after day, year after year. The stories you all share with me reveal the nuanced, emotional, social nature of male sexuality, and it’s time we update our cultural narratives to reflect that nuance and that humanness, right?
Chris Rose: 01:45 So, let’s dive into this interview.
Chris Rose: 01:48 Sarah Hunter Murray is a fabulous sex therapist out of Canada, author of Not Always in the Mood: The New Science of Men, Sex, and Relationships. You’ll find all of the links to her work in the show notes page for this episode at pleasuremechanics.com.
Chris Rose: 02:06 Come on over to pleasuremechanics.com for our full podcast archive, to explore our online courses when you are ready to master new erotic skills, and subscribe to this podcast to join this weekly conversation about sex and sexuality here on Speaking of Sex with The Pleasure Mechanics.
Chris Rose: 02:26 Here is my interview with Sarah Hunter Murray.
S Hunter Murray: 02:30 Hi. I am Sarah Hunter Murray. I have a PhD in human sexuality, I work as a relationship therapist, I’m in private practice in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, and I’m the author of Not Always in the Mood: The New Science of Men, Sex, and Relationships.
Chris Rose: 02:47 And so, why this book? Why this topic? Why did men deserve a book of their own?
S Hunter Murray: 02:53 Yeah, great question.
S Hunter Murray: 02:55 So, when I started my research as a sexuality researcher … I identify as a woman, I am so curious about women’s experiences, and in fact, that’s what I started doing: I started exploring how women experience sexual desire. I was fascinated by the complexities and the nuances. And there was so much that I learned about times that women are in the mood, and not so much, and societal messages, and psychological issues, and biological pieces. And really, what started to kind of stand out to me as I was going along the process is that we were really talking about women as being these really complex creature, perhaps to a fault, kind of maybe over-complicating women’s sexuality some argue, and I would put myself in that camp. And I realized that we were doing a lot of comparing to men’s desire, kind of talking about how … And making assumptions, I would say, about how men’s desire is quite surface-level, straightforward, high. There was kind of this language that suggested that men were always in the mood, and it just kind of hit me one day, “That can’t be true, can it?”
S Hunter Murray: 04:02 And so, I set forth to do some research by actually interviewing men, having in-depth conversations, asking about how they experience sexual desire in their relationships, and whether these assumptions were accurate or maybe not at all correct about how they truly experience their sexual interest.
Chris Rose: 04:23 So, your book came like an answer to my prayers.
S Hunter Murray: 04:28 Oh, wow!
Chris Rose: 04:29 Thank you for writing it, because I have been hungry for a more in-depth analysis about male sexuality. I feel like we do them such a disservice when we think about male sexuality as simple, and easy to please.
Chris Rose: 04:41 So, let’s dive into these myths, because you also do such a great job of showing how these myths hurt all of us, and how the myths about male sexuality are in dialogue with the myths about female sexuality, and we’re all kind of in this sexual culture together, which is a lot of what we talk about on this podcast, is the effect of the culture.
Chris Rose: 05:04 So, let’s dive into these myths, and let’s maybe start with your title, Not Always in the Mood, and this myth of kind of constant sexual interest and high libido. Why did you choose to center this myth in the title and in the book?
S Hunter Murray: 05:20 Yeah, so the reason that I chose the title and to kind of really highlight this idea of “not always in the mood” is because I think it really touches on this overarching idea that we do hold about men’s sexual interests: that it is high, constant, unwavering, that they’re always thinking about sex, it’s always on their mind, and that if sex is on offer, and particularly in a relationship … And the men in my research are largely identifying as heterosexual. So, particularly then when a female partner initiates sex, that there’s this idea that they should always take it, that that’s their top priority, if you will. And the more and more that I kind of talk about this stereotype, the more it even kind of makes me cringe even having to say the stereotype because I just know about how limiting it is.
S Hunter Murray: 06:06 But I really thought it was important to just start poking a hole in that and saying let’s at least talk about the times that men aren’t in the mood, that sometimes there’s men who have low desire, problematically low desire, or even men who have “normal”, quote, unquote, healthy, even high desire still are human beings and not robots who just might not be in the mood sometimes for various reasons that I don’t think we really typically acknowledge.
Chris Rose: 06:33 Can you say that again? It’s high, unwavering …
S Hunter Murray: 06:36 High, constant, unwavering. Just this idea that it’s … I kind of use that, the language that almost implies that it’s robotic, right? That there’s not feelings and emotions, that there’s not sickness, and illness, and just stress, right? Men are of course humans, but I think when we talk about their sexual desire, we default to this language that implies that they don’t experience a full range of human emotions that impact all of us, and impact of course our sexuality as well.
Chris Rose: 07:08 Exactly. And then that becomes bundled with, once that opportunity for sex presents itself, you will be erect, and ready, and able to have an orgasm easily, right? Oversimplification, this tremendous pressure it puts on men.
Chris Rose: 07:22 What did you see as some of the stories, some of the symptoms that started surfacing as you got to talk to these men about their truth of their sexual experiences? How do they experience this myth?
S Hunter Murray: 07:36 Yeah, so when I was interviewing men … My first set of my research was on … I did these in-depth interviews. And so, I started by asking men about how true is this? Do you feel sexual desire? Are there ever times where you don’t? And I have to admit, a lot of the men actually did start by describing their desire as high, saying, “You know what? I’m more often or not in the mood. It’s hard to imagine a time where I wouldn’t want sex.”
S Hunter Murray: 08:04 But it didn’t take long, as our interviews continued … Which is what I love about these in-depth conversations, is because you get to move past that first thing that you say that comes out of your mouth. And men would start to open up about, “Oh, well, you know, maybe my desire isn’t as high as it used to be.” You know, men in their 30s, 40s, 50s, starting to kind of reflect on some changes they’ve experienced over time. Men would say things like, “Oh, well, if I’m tired or really sick …” Very understandable experiences again, but just starting to kind of talk about that exception to the rule.
S Hunter Murray: 08:38 But the thing that really caught my attention the most is that when men were talking about times they wouldn’t be in the mood to have sex, this came up in the interviews and again on my online larger qualitative study, they were talking about times that they didn’t feel emotionally connected to their partner. And I think that really deserves some attention and some conversation because we often think about men as wanting sex no matter what, or being so excited that sex is on offer that they might be able to kind of turn off some of those other emotions. But it came out very clearly and repeatedly through my research that if men were feeling a disconnect, if they were even having a fight with their partner, or maybe there was kind of this distance that hadn’t really been resolved, that their interest in having sex wasn’t always there, that they wanted that connection, they wanted to feel close in order to be physically intimate.
S Hunter Murray: 09:30 So, it’s something that we don’t really talk about when it comes to men’s sexual desire.
Chris Rose: 09:36 And you did such a beautiful job zooming in on this idea that if we believe men just want sex to get off, what does that kind of say to the gatekeepers of sex, traditionally the women? That it’s kind of an opportunity that they’ll say “yes” to no matter what, and that no matter what kind of then depersonalizes it and doesn’t speak to the emotional hunger that men are initiating with.
S Hunter Murray: 10:02 Absolutely.
Chris Rose: 10:03 This myth is so damaging for all of us. Can you bring us to that moment?
S Hunter Murray: 10:08 Yeah, absolutely.
S Hunter Murray: 10:10 And so, that was kind of this pivotal moment for me, was realizing that, as men were sharing their experiences with me, that they’re saying that sex is not just this physical need to get off. Sex ideally feels good. There’s some level of pleasure that’s experienced. It’s not that that’s not an important component. But again, this idea that it’s just about getting off, and for a partner, and say particularly female partner in the case of my research, if they believe that their male partner is simply looking to get off, they may be in a relationship where the expectation is that it’s monogamous and they’re the only appropriate person that they can engage with, there’s nothing sexy, or romantic, or flattering about that, right? It’s this really limited idea that you just want to get off. It’s not about connecting with me. It’s not about that moment of intimacy. And when that’s missing, you can understand, if any person feels that way about their partner, they might be inclined to turn down that sexual bid. It doesn’t feel sexy or make anyone feel good to think that you just want to get off.
S Hunter Murray: 11:18 But what men were saying in my research is that sex is this experience of emotional connection, of this deeper level of intimacy, and what they really wanted was to connect with their partner through sex. Of course, they talked about the side of it that feels good, but they really wanted … It was a bid for emotional connection.
S Hunter Murray: 11:40 And I think what’s so important … And I’ll speak about my clinical work as a relationship therapist. When I’m working with couples, and heterosexual couples particularly, where the female partner kind of can hear her male partner speak through that, I’ve seen it over and over again where she’ll just kind of have this deep sigh and be like, “Oh, okay. I get it.” Like, “That makes me feel better. That makes me feel like I understand where you’re coming from, that I know you better.” It doesn’t mean she has to say “yes” to his sexual advance just because it’s a bid for connection. But I think at least acknowledging that sex can be that bid for connection from men I think allows, particularly heterosexual couples who are taught these really limiting roles about how men and women are supposed to be, it gives them a better understanding of their partner, and an ability to say, “Oh, maybe you feel disconnected. You’re reaching out through sex. I don’t particularly feel turned on right now, but maybe we can kind of sit and talk, maybe I can warm up to the idea, maybe we can find a different way of connecting now and try sex later.”
S Hunter Murray: 12:43 But it’s an idea that, if we kind of understand the underlying motivation for our partner initiating sex, it just helps us to understand their inner world a little better, and maybe even find a way to connect if that’s sometimes like the ultimate thing that’s being sought after.
Chris Rose: 13:01 My brain’s going in about 10 directions right now. But one of those places is that what is being sought, and if we can bring intention and name that intention more clearly, then as you said, the options open up, the many sexual experiences, erotic connections you can have, and the pressure to perform, which dovetails with this other myth of the ever-performing penis really [crosstalk 00:13:28]. And that again just puts so much pressure on men to have sex mean one thing-
S Hunter Murray: 13:33 Yep.
Chris Rose: 13:34 … and that one thing be something he has to control and manage.
Chris Rose: 13:39 I’ve been hearing so much from men about the, not only pressure to have the erection and the ejaculation, but the pressure to kind of manage the whole sexual experience and be in control all the time.
S Hunter Murray: 13:52 Yes. Yes. And that was another thing that came up, this idea that men are feeling a lot of the responsibility around sexual activity, and again, particularly in heterosexual relationships, is on their shoulders. And there’s a good reason for that, because our society continues to, from a young age, reinforce men for seeking out sexual stimulation, sexual partners, kind of pushing to that next level of sexual intimacy. So, a lot of men can kind of relate to feeling in high school that men who … Or boys at time, sometimes, are being rewarded through popularity, high-fives, if they have a partner, if they have sex. And so, there’s this idea that they are positively rewarded for pursuing sexual activity. Whereas women, most women would say that their experience was more around the shaming of their sexuality, that they were taught to be passive, that good girls make him wait, having multiple sexual partners can give you labels of being a slut or a whore. And some women in high school tend to avoid wanting those labels. I think we kind of can challenge them as we become adults, but I think those assumptions about what men and women should do and what they’re rewarded or criticized for doing impacts how we enter into relationships.
Chris Rose: 15:20 Yeah.
S Hunter Murray: 15:21 And so, what I’ve heard is that men are saying the expectation tends to be that they initiate sex, that they flirt with their female partner, that they desire her, they tell her she’s beautiful, they are responsible during sex for providing sexual pleasure, and kind of feeling that that level of responsibility is kind of damaging for them. It’s a bit exhausting, but also that they feel so excited when those roles get reversed.
S Hunter Murray: 15:52 So, one of the myths that I talk about in the book is this idea that men say that they want to feel desired in return, that they like when their female partner compliments them, when she reaches out to touch him, even romantically, when she initiates sex, when it feels like there’s this role reversal and this feeling of being desired and wanted.
S Hunter Murray: 16:14 So, men were talking about how good that feels. And again, it’s just something particularly with heterosexual relationships where men and women receive such different messages growing up about what they should do. Men were saying they’re really ready to kind of challenge some of those norms and kind of split the workload, if you will, when it comes to sex.
Chris Rose: 16:35 And as a therapist, how do you work with people? Because sometimes in the podcast when we encourage these massive reframings of expectations and cultural norms, the next question is like, “Well, great. Now how?” Like, “I see the benefit. I know I want to, but undoing these programing can feel so challenging.”
Chris Rose: 17:00 What are some of the first steps for men to recognize which myths are impacting them the most, and start unpacking some of this for themselves?
S Hunter Murray: 17:08 Yeah. Really great question.
S Hunter Murray: 17:10 So, it depends. I talk through a bunch of different myths. And so, I think some readers have reached out to me to let me know that the book in general really hits home for them, and that kind of all the myths really apply.
Chris Rose: 17:25 Yeah.
S Hunter Murray: 17:25 Some of those people will reach out saying, “This one myth in particularly really resonated.”
S Hunter Murray: 17:30 But part of it is kind of figuring out what really hits home for you. My goal with this book, or presenting this research, is in no way to suggest a new mold of men’s sexuality. It is to suggest that maybe we can have a different discourse and allow for more nuances within men and between men about their experiences.
S Hunter Murray: 17:52 So, if we’re talking about this idea of wanting to feel desired as an example, what I would suggest is the first thing is just acknowledging. I really do take this approach that it’s not on men’s shoulders to change it, it’s not on women’s shoulders to feel responsible: it’s really about opening up a dialogue.
S Hunter Murray: 18:11 One of the couples that comes to mind for me, that I was working with, talks about how even having the language around “I want to feel desired. Feeling desired is important to me.” was a critical step in terms of even being able to acknowledge to himself that it was important, that he liked when his female partner kind of reassured him of being wanted through physical touch, just a quick kiss on the cheek when she passed by, giving him a rub on the shoulders. When she initiated sex, it kind of put him at ease that she wanted it, and that she was an excited participant. Sometimes he worried that if he initiated at the wrong time that he would either be rejected, or he had his own insecurities around whether she was kind of, quote, unquote, “just going along with it”, like consenting but not really being that excited about it. So, all of these things, as he was able to vocalize what was important about feeling desired, ways that she made him feel wanted, it helped him with the language, and it helped her understand his needs.
S Hunter Murray: 19:13 Now, with this particular couple, they were in their 60s. They had years and years of learning certain rules about how men and women are supposed to be. And she struggled with the idea of initiating sex because she had been taught for decades that that’s not what women do.
S Hunter Murray: 19:31 So, again to your point, not an easy thing for some people to kind of switch. But she actually, as we continued our work together, started to play around with the idea that she’s never been able to fully embrace sex on her schedule. She was always taught to wait for a partner to indicate he was in the mood or not. Or I guess that he was in the mood, sorry, and then she could see if she was or not. And as we continued our exploration of the messages she received about women and sexuality, she really started to open up about, “Wow! This could be really exciting for me to say, ‘Hey, I’m interested.'”, and tap into the times where her desire was there, but she never actually turned the feeling into action because she was always taught “That’s not what you do.”
S Hunter Murray: 20:14 So, I guess that’s a kind of long-winded answer to your question. But I think it starts with naming what is important to us, why is it important to us, and asking are there ways in this relationship that feel comfortable for both of us to take some responsibility to kind of shift these dynamics. They don’t blame. There’s no expectation that things have to kind of shift on a dime. Some people find these things a little easier to incorporate sooner, and other people, like I said with this couple in their 60s that’s coming to mind for me now, there’s a lot of years to kind of unpack and reverse in order to kind of challenge some of these myths.
Chris Rose: 20:53 Yeah. And there seems to be this double burden of there’s the struggle itself of you’re not having the sex you want, or the kind of sexual expression you want, and then there’s the experience on top of that of the shame and what that means about you, and your worth, and your position in the relationship. And we should try to excavate for ourselves where is the struggle? Is it the actual experience I’m having with my soft penis, or is it the story I’m putting on what that means?
S Hunter Murray: 21:27 Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, throughout my research, men would say things like if they weren’t in the mood, if they turned down sex, and whether or not that’s because they had an erection or not, or could or could not obtain erection, or they just weren’t kind of mentally there, sometimes they were worried about how their female partner respond. Would she judge, or would she say “no” next time? And there was kind of some men who talked about that concern.
S Hunter Murray: 21:55 But some men said, even if their female partner was understanding and reassuring that they actually felt there was something wrong with them on a personal level, that no amount of reassurance was really going to cut it for them, that they held such a high standard for themselves in terms of being in the mood, “That’s what men should do. That’s what I’ve been told men should do. I’m not meeting that norm.”, and talking about the struggle that they experienced internally, and the judgements they put on themselves in those moments, which I think what you’re speaking to is that only intensifies and amplifies those negative feelings, and makes enjoyable sex less likely. That pressure doesn’t really work in our favor.
Chris Rose: 22:43 A few moments ago you said something I’m so curious about. You said that you, in the book, don’t position a new model for male sexuality. I’m curious where you come down on, after these conversations, after your years of clinical practice, where are you seeing our sex culture right now? Where do you feel like we need to head? Do we have a broken system? Where are you falling on that?
S Hunter Murray: 23:08 Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great question.
S Hunter Murray: 23:12 I guess what I mean when I say I’m not trying to create a new mold of male sexuality is because I do find sometimes when I have written an article, whether it’s for Psychology Today, or I’ve given a quick interview, I do get a lot of really positive feedback and response, whether it’s from men, or women, or both, and couples, saying, “This really resonates. I finally feel seen. I finally feel like I understand my partner.”
S Hunter Murray: 23:40 Almost inevitably, I’ll get that one random comment from someone who says, “Well, I’m always in the mood. I always feel desire.” I’m like, “Okay, that’s fine.” I’m not trying to say that just because the men that have participated in my research and the themes and findings that I’ve found … If that doesn’t speak to you, that’s fine. Not all men are going to fit in this description. But what I really do want to suggest is that we know that other side, right? We’re used to that person, whether it’s a singer, or a rapper, or a music video, or a TV show, or a movie. We’re used to that archetype of that man who’s like, “I’m always in the mood, need lots of women, cheating because I can’t be satisfied in a monogamous relationship.” I was like, “We know that story.” What we don’t have as much knowledge of or space to talk about is all the nuances, the complexities, the time men aren’t in the mood, the things that would decrease their sexual interest, the emotional vulnerability involved in initiating sex, the deep feelings of rejection that can happen when sexual initiation and that bid for connection isn’t met.
S Hunter Murray: 24:58 We don’t talk about that emotional side of men’s sexuality and their sexual desire specifically, and I think that really is causing a disservice to us socially. I think it’s keeping men in these narrow boxes about what they should demonstrate. I think it’s making female partners feel disconnected from their male partners with those assumptions that we talked about before, that it’s just this physical need, and missing out on these emotional connections.
S Hunter Murray: 25:23 And so, while I definitely want to push a conversation around, “How true are these assumptions?”, and “Is there room for a more nuanced and more complicated idea of men’s sexuality?”, I never want to come across as saying that, for men who identify as having high sex drives, that there’s something inherently wrong with them, or that that’s a problem. But I just think that there’s too many men who have been kind of forced into a box, and not given the space to say, “Hey, my desire’s more complex than that. I don’t always feel desire. I sometimes want to say ‘no’. I find initiating a little exhausting sometimes. I want to feel desired.” I think it at least allows for a better conversation that allows men some variation, and I think it helps women better understand their male partners in a lot of situations.
S Hunter Murray: 26:18 Did I answer your question? Yeah?
Chris Rose: 26:21 Yeah, and it allows men some dignity, and feeling less isolated. I get so many emails that start, “I’ve never told anyone this before, dot, dot, dot.”, and then they reveal a pattern that I’ve seen thousands of times, right?
S Hunter Murray: 26:35 Yes. Yes.
Chris Rose: 26:37 And I’m sure you see this. And how do we deal with this: people feeling alone in what we know are very well-established patterns?
S Hunter Murray: 26:45 Exactly.
Chris Rose: 26:45 And that isolation is part of the struggle.
S Hunter Murray: 26:48 Exactly. That’s so bang on from my experiences as well. And I am a woman who’s writing about men’s sexual desire, but one of the reasons that I’m really passionate at least about presenting the research as a real … From the voices of men. I use a lot of quotes so that readers can hear it as if it was one of their buddies. It’s men’s words. It’s their descriptions. I’m not putting my own twist on it. I really want to show men what other men are saying, because so often what I get as feedback, when people read the book or if I kind of have given a tidbit like an interview such as this, they’ll say, “Oh, I thought it was just me.” And I think it’s so important to just hear that other side.
S Hunter Murray: 27:38 Men in my research will say they know that … They hear those conversations, and the stereotypical locker room of, “Hey, did you get laid last night?”, or making comments to a girl who walks by. Men that I speak with are actually quite critical of that, and yet there’s another part that kind of doubts, like, “Oh, wait, it’s not true. Or is it?”
S Hunter Murray: 28:00 That’s all I hear. We don’t have as many dialogues. We don’t hear that discourse around men talking about, “Yeah, work is really hard right now. I am stressed. When I get home, I just want to watch a show and go to bed early. And to be honest, sex is kind of the last thing on my mind right now.” We don’t have a lot of examples of hearing that, and men will say it’s so helpful to know, “Oh, okay. So, that’s a thing. Other men experience it. It’s not just me. There’s nothing wrong with me, I just haven’t heard this, and I haven’t heard my experience normalized like that before.”
Chris Rose: 28:40 Thank you so much for collecting these narratives, for bringing your wisdom to it.
Chris Rose: 28:46 Can you let folks know where to find more from you online?
S Hunter Murray: 28:50 Yeah, I’d love to. Thanks for the opportunity.
S Hunter Murray: 28:52 So, my research is all presented in the book that we’re talking about, Not Always in the Mood: The New Science of Men, Sex, and Relationships. And I also write a blog for Psychology Today where I touch on a lot of topics, but as much as possible also hit on these issues about men’s sexuality, and it’s called Myths of Desire. And again, that’s for Psychology Today.
Chris Rose: 29:16 And what are the questions you are thinking most about right now?
S Hunter Murray: 29:21 So, I think what I’m still most curious about is, at this stage, my research is really focused on heterosexual dynamics. And of course, that doesn’t apply to all men, as identifying as heterosexual or dating women. And so, I’m really curious. I think if we’re going to completely understand, if we can ever completely understand anything, but at least better understand men’s experiences, then of course it has to include men who identify as bisexual, as gay, as pansexual, as queer. We need to kind of include more experiences. Are there, say, slightly or maybe even very different experiences of men with different sexual orientations in different relationship structures?
S Hunter Murray: 30:09 I’m particularly interested as we get older as well. My research starts with men … My interviews were 30 to 65. My online study 18 to 65. The people that I work with in a clinical setting are always 18 and over. But I’m particularly curious about the nuances and complexities that hit our life the older that we get. So, I’m more and more interested in men’s experiences as they hit 30, 40, into their 50s and 60s, where there’s children, mortgages, changing perspectives on your life, and your future, and retirement.
S Hunter Murray: 30:48 I think that life just gets more and more interesting, and I think when we do find studies on men’s sexual desire, they tend to be more in that college-aged sample, which I think just continues to reinforce the chances that men describe their desire as higher, if they’re 18 to 21, 18 to 25. Again, not all men experience high pulsating sexual desire at that time either. But the chances are that life is a little more fun and carefree. Biology and diseases … Testosterone hasn’t decreased. There are certain things that kind of reinforce that stereotype if we continue to use college-aged samples in our research.
S Hunter Murray: 31:27 So, I’m really fascinated about focusing on men’s sexual orientations beyond that heterosexual dynamic, and particularly kind of that middle to later age in life.
Chris Rose: 31:37 Fabulous. I can’t wait to learn more with you.
Chris Rose: 31:40 Sarah, thank you so much for taking your time and sharing your wisdom with us today.
S Hunter Murray: 31:44 It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Rose: 31:46 I hope you enjoyed that interview. Come on over to pleasuremechanics.com for our complete podcast archive, and I will link to a few other episodes about men’s sexuality in the show notes page for this episode so you can continue the conversation.
Chris Rose: 32:04 Be sure to sign up for our free online course, The Erotic Essentials, at pleasuremechanics.com/free. That’s pleasuremechanics.com/free.
Chris Rose: 32:16 We will be back with you next week with another episode of Speaking of Sex. Remember, we are 100% supported by our listening community. So, if you love this show and want to support the work we are doing, head on over to pleasuremechanics.com/love and show us some love to help keep this show going and growing.
Chris Rose: 32:40 We will see you next week. I am Chris from pleasuremechanics.com, wishing you a lifetime of pleasure.
Chris Rose: 32:47 Cheers.