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Taking Turns In Bed : How To Practice The Skills of Giving and Receiving Pleasure

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Taking turns in bed is one of the most powerful reframes you can make to gain access to way more pleasure and connection.

Taking turns is yet another gift from our erotic massage lineage – on a massage table it is clear how we can take turns giving and receiving touch, centering the needs and desires of one body at a time so we can lavish it with as much presence and pleasure as possible.

Taking turns is not about “you do me and then I’ll do you” – it is about dropping into a shared erotic experience with focused attention. Listen in to find out how this simple idea of taking turns can emerge in sex, love and life.

To practice the skills of giving and receiving pleasure, we highly encourage you to explore the Three Minute Game. Get our recorded walkthrough by signing up for our newsletter below!


Resources

Betty Martin’s Wheel Of Consent : Free Training Videos, Courses and More


Podcast Transcript:

Podcast transcripts are generated with love by humans, and thus may not be 100% accurate. Time stamps are included so you can cross reference or jump to any point in the podcast episode above. THANKS to the members of our Pleasure Pod for helping make transcripts and the rest of our free offerings happen! If you love what we offer, find ways to show your love and dive deeper with us here: SHOW SOME LOVE

Chris Rose: 00:01 Welcome to Speaking of Sex With the Pleasure Mechanics. I’m Chris.

Charlotte Rose: 00:05 I am Charlotte.

Chris Rose: 00:06 We are the Pleasure Mechanics and on this podcast we have explicit, soulful conversations. Some have called it passionate and compassionate conversations about everything you need to know about sex, love, relationships and surviving this world.

Chris Rose: 00:23 Come on over to pleasuremechanics.com where you will find all of our free resources waiting for you. Go to pleasure mechanics.com/free and enroll in our free online course, The Erotic Essentials so we can get started with you right away. Let us get started with you.

Chris Rose: 00:44 On today’s podcast. We’re talking about taking turns in bed. Yet another one of these gifts that comes to us through our erotic massage lineage. We’ve been talking a lot about these perspectives and strategies that we learned because Charlotte and I were both trained in erotic massage and how that perspective changed everything for us I think. How we think about sex and fucking and loving and living. We keep coming across these gifts as we explore our work and so we just want to articulate them and share them with you. Because sometimes when I get your emails and I start digging into your struggles, it becomes clear to me that shifts of perspectives and as I’m saying shifts a lot, it’s a hard word to say, changing your perspective can make dramatic changes in your lived experience.

Chris Rose: 01:46 In the academic world we have a word called “praxis,” and praxis is one of my favorite words that I geeked out on in college that I kind of want to get tattooed on my body. Because praxis talks about the relationship between theory, the ideas we have about something, action, the behaviors we take, and knowledge. And knowledge is another word for experience. Your erotic knowledge is a sum of your experiences. And so sometimes we want to intervene on the actions and sometimes we want to intervene on the theories.

Chris Rose: 02:20 So today is a theory intervention where we’re going to talk about taking turns in bed. Taking turns in bed, taking turns at pleasure, taking turns in the role of giver and receiver and what that means for your entire sex life and your perspective on sex itself.

Charlotte Rose: 02:42 I love this so much because when we’re having “regular sex,” whatever that looks like for you, there is sometimes so much going on. There’s so much to pay attention to. There’s your body, the other person’s body, how they’re connecting, how our thoughts are running wild perhaps. All of the feelings that we’re having. There is a lot going on. And slowing things way down and identifying that one of you is giving and one of you is receiving really allows each one of you to drop into that experience and just do that. And when we do that, we are able to slow down and really feel our feelings, feel our body, feel the sensations that we’re experiencing. It simplifies matters.

Chris Rose: 03:34 And taking turns doesn’t mean you do me and I’ll do you. It’s not waiting in line for a ride. It doesn’t mean checking out of the experience when it’s not your turn. As Charlotte says, it means going even more deep into the roles of giving and receiving so you both can be even more present, more aware and feel more.

Chris Rose: 03:54 This dynamic is so clear to us on the massage table. When you have a massage table set up, one person lies down and one person works at the table walking around at all angles, massaging and touching and being with the receiver’s body. And that entire session, from the first conversation about it, to the conversation afterwards and the drink of water as you’re sitting up and coming to after your hour session, is all for the benefit and experience of the receiver. The giver is there in service to that experience, which doesn’t mean you can check out. The giver goes deep into their role of giving, brings all of their skills, all of their presence, all of their attention to usher in the desired experience into the recipient’s body.

Charlotte Rose: 04:47 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Rose: 04:48 What a gift. What a gift. And that’s true for all massage when done well, because certainly you can go to a massage and the giver is not present and they’re just going through a routine. And you don’t feel that they are here for me in every way kind of feeling. But when you have that feeling it is special, you can feel it, it is palpable. And then when we go to a erotic massage we’re bringing that attention, that full presence and attention and skillfulness into the eroticism, into arousal. And then we take that skill off the massage table and bring it with us into bed.

Chris Rose: 05:30 And this is what I noticed. So just to take you back to our early twenties, Charlotte and I were both living in San Francisco and without having met one another yet, we’re both getting trained in massage. And I was being trained directly in the Body Electric lineage. Charlotte got another training and then entered the Body Electric lineage. But as I learned erotic massage, I’d come home on the weekends and have sex with my friends. I was living in an apartment with two gay men and we were in this play party community and so I was having lots of sex with lots of people. And as soon as I learned massage, everything about my sex changed. And I started bringing that focus of attention and that taking turns mentality into sex. And meanwhile I was in a kinky community, and we see this same dynamic in the kink community where often there is a top and a bottom, a giver and a receiver, and you orchestrate the scene around one person’s desires.

Chris Rose: 06:29 So this combination of educations for me allowed me to create these sex scenes with people where I was like, “Tell me what you want. What would feel best for you right now? I am totally at your service. Ask and you shall receive.”

Chris Rose: 06:45 And that was delightful for me. But then when those same people, my same lovers turned that attention on me and was like, “Well, what do you want?”

Chris Rose: 06:54 I was like, “Uh! I don’t know! I’m a survivor. I don’t know.” And that question is really scary.

Chris Rose: 06:59 And so this is part of the dynamic we want to talk about is, the fantasy of just giving and receiving with full attention and presence and one person can just lie back and luxuriate and receive. That’s a fantasy. How does the reality play out in your life when it comes to giving and receiving? Which one of these roles is easier for you? What emotions come up? And this is where the magic starts to happen within a relationship, where you can start working with this dynamic, giving one another deeper presence and attention, and going through all of the emotions and stuff that will come up during that process.

Chris Rose: 07:40 What was the transition like for you when you learned massage and then erotic massage skills? How did it change your sex life?

Charlotte Rose: 07:47 Hmm. I feel like I really got to see from the people I was giving massage to that there was a breadth of skillset to receiving. It was really interesting to guide people through a massage and then an erotic experience for eight hours a day and see people one after the other and see how… I was doing fairly similar things with each body, and different people could take that pleasure in to different extents. And that was really fascinating to observe and see the skill set of receiving. And also to be able to go deep into my role of giving, because the more that I meditated or danced beforehand to really get myself in my own body and in my own awareness, in my own presence, I was able to give from a deeper place, from a place where I could listen more with my hands. And then I was able to take people to higher levels of pleasure.

Chris Rose: 08:55 Right. So I just want to paint the training grounds of our erotic skills a little bit. Charlotte was doing erotic massage primarily on men for six to eight sessions a day, a few days a week. Meanwhile, I was doing all these sessions with survivors, with women, with couples and I’m teaching workshops where I got to see 20 people at a time, sometimes on massage tables. And when you see all of these bodies you get to see the patterns. And this piece of depth of role of giver and receiver was so apparent. And it’s one of these things that we can just bring right home to how we love one another. Because in each of these roles, giver and receiver, you can be distracted and barely there and going through the motions, or you can be so present that you feel the quiver of your lovers pleasure at the fingertips. It’s right there at every breath and you are riding that together.

Chris Rose: 09:56 And when you’re both dropped into your role, when you’re both dropped in, that’s where you meet, right? So it’s not this thing of we’re on separate experiences, you’re the giver, I’m the receiver, you’re doing something, I’m not. You’re meeting right there at the point of touch, at the point of breath where they arousal is growing and you’re right there sharing that experience. And I think if you think through your sex life, you’ve had these moments, whether you’ve done it purposefully or not, with skill or not. A lot of us have found these moments sometimes by accident and you find yourself right there and engaged with someone, and at that moment you’re like right in the pleasurable experience with full presence together and it feels fucking amazing. And we crave it and we try to recreate it and sometimes when it doesn’t happen, it can feel deeply frustrating or isolating or alienating. So this is a way of doing that on purpose by, as Charlotte said, splitting up these roles so you have one thing to focus on.

Chris Rose: 11:02 My favorite example of this is the ultimate distracting position is the 69 position, right? Where someone’s genitals are right in your face, your genitals are right in someone’s face. Sensation is really high. You’re trying to manage body positions, you’re trying to support your weight. You’re worried about, “Am I going to come too soon? Not soon enough?” All of those things streaming through you. And for most of us, most sex is that giving and receiving at the same time. Like pay attention to it all, a cacophony of sensations and feelings and emotions and distractions. It’s a lot to pay attention to. When we slow it down, when we say, “What do you want tonight? What can I give you tonight?” it allows you to focus on one thing at a time and therefore go deeper.

Chris Rose: 11:49 So there’s two ways to think about this giving and receiving. And when we paint the picture of the massage table, giving and receiving looks a lot like who is giving the touch and who is receiving the touch. Who is giving the touch and who is receiving the touch. And this was the basis of the Body Electric lineage. And out of that, this game that we’re going to share with you, the 3-Minute Game, came as an exercise of saying, “For three minutes, how do you want to be touched?”

Chris Rose: 12:23 And then you ask your partner that, they make a very specific request, “Please massage my arms with moderate to deep pressure. I have a sore elbow.” Right? So you lay out your request and then you spend three minutes just doing that touch. And we do this in massage classes, we do this as part of sex coaching. It’s a fabulous exercise because with three minutes on the timer, most people can focus on something for one to three minutes. And sometimes I even drop this to like one minute or 90 seconds.

Chris Rose: 12:55 But when you’re asked what do you want for three minutes, you then have to go into yourself and say, “I have a talented masseur asking me what I want for three minutes. What is my body craving?” So there’s that skill of articulating what you want and asking for it out loud.

Chris Rose: 13:14 A woman named Betty Martin, who was part of one of the very early sexological bodywork trainings that I was teaching with Joe Kramer, founder of Body Electric School, during that training started complicating this and saying, “Wait, wait, wait. Giver and receiver isn’t nuanced enough because you don’t always give for the receiver’s pleasure. Who is it for? Who is the touch serving? We have to start asking that question.” And thus she opened up kind of a new axis and what she now calls the Wheel of Consent. And for the past 13 years since I first met her, she’s been really developing this area and offers trainings on the Wheel of Consent.

Chris Rose: 13:57 And that asks both, in a 3-Minute Game, “How do you want to be touched, and how do you want to touch me?”

Chris Rose: 14:07 We start activating that access of, “Who is this for,” and, “What is it like to touch for my pleasure, to give touch for my own gratification?”

Chris Rose: 14:21 And I love this access. I love how she’s opened this up because it really opens up that conversation of, “Who is this for? Who’s pleasure are we centering?” And I think of this as whose desires are we centering for this erotic event? And I think this is what the kink community asks us, right? Because in the kink community there’s the top and the bottom, but whose desires are being centered is really important. Is the bottom, the submissive, on their knees because they like it, or because the top wants them on their knees? Or both, right? Because you can’t make that assumption, who is it for? So who’s doing what and who is it for, become the questions of giving and receiving.

Charlotte Rose: 15:05 And hearing that it’s possible to give touch so that you can take your own pleasure can be really challenging to hear because we live in a world where there is sexual violence and we’re really trying hard to not do that. And that’s why Betty Martin talks about the Wheel of Consent, that it’s so important to really have these explicit conversations and agreements made before you start any kind of touch so you both have agreed to whatever you’re doing and that there’s clarity around that. Because once you have clarity, then you can really say yes to something. Otherwise it can be really murky and not clear and it can start feeling a little crummy.

Chris Rose: 15:49 A classic example of this to me is when someone’s like, “Hey, do you want a shoulder rub?”

Chris Rose: 15:54 And you’re like, “Yeah, that sounds nice. I’ll take a shoulder rub.”

Chris Rose: 15:58 And you start getting the shoulder rub and then the hands start drifting to the breasts. They are changing the agreement and taking touch that they want for their hands, for their pleasure, without your agreement, right? And making that dynamic consensual turns out to be really important, and I think it’s so important we’re going to do a whole episode on it. Because this is that place of take, of “take and allow” is what Betty Martin calls it and so many of us want to be taken. The idea that someone finds our body so desirable that they want to touch it and eat it and fuck it for their own pleasure can feel really good if you want that person too. But being taken without consent and without mutual desire feels awful. So that’s a really important dynamic to get right, to do consensually for it to feel awesome.

Chris Rose: 16:57 Right now we’re focusing on this give and receive, where the touch is being done for and centering the pleasure of the person receiving. This dynamic is boundless in the pleasure it can bring you, because when we each start tuning in, “What does my body want right now? What would feel good to it right now?”

Chris Rose: 17:21 Given the current context, given where I’m just… As the right now appears moment to moment and we have a partner who has skilled hands and full presence and saying, “How can I serve you? What do you want?” the pleasure is endless.

Chris Rose: 17:37 Because you can start saying, “Oh, I just need to be held and listened to. Ooh, a shoulder massage would feel really good right now. I’ve had a long day at the office. My butt could use a lot of work. I want to be fucked really deeply and rough tonight. I just want tender, loving touch and maybe go down on me while I weep.”

Chris Rose: 17:56 Your vocabulary of once opens up because you’re invited into this experience in something as simple as the 3-Minute Game. And the 3-Minute Game, so we’ll set it up for you, and I think maybe we’ll record a practice of it and people can then try it on their own. And we’ll have that available in the show notes page of this episode. I’m just like, I throw these things in as we’re recording. Charlotte’s looking at me like, “Oh will we?” Yes we will. We will record a practice of this game because I think it’s a really important one.

Chris Rose: 18:29 And the 3-Minute Game often starts at the kitchen table. This is not in bed, this is just in a relaxed or on the couch. And you set a timer, which is an important tool. It’s not arbitrary. Having a timer allows you to focus and then allows that boundary of time. So you say, “For three minutes, how can I serve you? What do you want? What kind of touch would you like?”

Chris Rose: 18:54 And then the range of opportunity is there for the person to go inside and think about what would feel good and say it out loud, to ask for it. And then built into the exercise is a negotiation. So the person giving can have boundaries too. “Is that a touch you can show up for willingly? Are you available for that? Can you do that right now?”

Chris Rose: 19:18 And then you negotiate and you say, “Well I would love to stroke your hair. What position would feel good for us?” And you do it. You set the timer and you notice what three minutes can bring you. That is another gift of that is you notice in your body how three minutes of intentional, affectionate touch can completely shift your neurochemistry. And this is why, for example, in our couples massage course we have five minute follow-along guides because we’ve noticed over the years, five minutes can completely change how you feel in your body and open up whole new yeses.

Chris Rose: 19:55 So the 3-Minute Game, lest it sound clinical, right? Because some people can hear this and be like, “I don’t want to play a 3-Minute Game. I want to fuck,” right?

Chris Rose: 20:05 The 3-Minute Game as a practice to activate these skills, to show you the power of the giving and receiving role, then builds into things like, “Honey, what are you up for tonight? What are you into?” And that is such a different invitation than, “Can I get sex tonight?” This is a primary thing for so many couples and we’ve talked about it before so I won’t go on a huge rant, I promise. But for so many couples, any sort of affectionate touch is an assumption of intercourse. We’re going to start on this ride. It finishes with intercourse and if you’re not up for intercourse, you don’t get on the ride.

Chris Rose: 20:45 If instead, affectionate touch is just affectionate touch, which then may lead to more affectionate touch. It might lead to one of you getting off. It might lead to both of you getting off. It becomes just a starter. It becomes an invitation just to be in that moment together, just to touch for the pleasure and connection of that touch. It really changes everything. And it’s not clinical. You start this as a practice to build skills to become a more skillful lover.

Charlotte Rose: 21:15 Yeah. It’s such a wonderful opportunity to have this little game where you can practice and activate your communication. Asking for what you want, setting boundaries, making requests. They’re just such a wonderful skills that we can all use, developing. And it’s a short amount of time. It is powerful and it’s interesting just to see what comes up, to see what you discover about yourself, your partner and what feels good. No major sexual expectations, just an exploration. So I’m so excited for you guys to explore this.

Chris Rose: 21:51 And beyond the game. So as we build the skills through the game, through these experiments, through short little experiments, you then build these skills as lovers. And I want to paint the picture a little bit of what this looks like as lovers. Because the giving and receiving, it’s not just about the game for skills, it’s about a whole model of having sex together. Where it’s not, “We’re just going to fall together and collide and roll around and pay attention to everything at once,” and hope both people’s needs are being met.

Chris Rose: 22:24 Giving and receiving, when you break down the roles and you go into sex, and this can all be done very passionately, you’re kissing, you’re touching one another, and there opens this conversation of like, “What are you into right now? What do you want right now? Show me, guide me.”

Chris Rose: 22:42 And there’s this skill you develop where you trust one another, that taking turns is not waiting for your turn. I really want to say that again. It’s not like, “Let me get you off and then you get me off.” It’s not one for one. There’s no scoreboard. It’s just this open opportunity to be like, “I am here for you. Let me serve you right now.” And this can be… So session by session, you can devote a whole session, a whole evening, a whole weekend to centering one person’s desires and pleasure. What a gift that would be, where you arrange a whole arc of time centering and lavishing one person and your attention, getting their favorite takeout, making sure they feel loved and pampered and paid attention to, and then you arrange the whole sex around just pleasuring them. Whether or not you as a giver find pleasure in that, have an orgasm or not, all of those things are negotiable of where you fit into that, but you have centered their needs and desires.

Chris Rose: 23:50 This spirit of giving and receiving can also happen within the arc of one night. It’s like, “Let me take care of you first. We’re going to pamper you. We’re going to lavish you with touch. You are going to be in your afterglow. And then from that place you’re going to turn to me with all of your hunger and take care of me.”

Chris Rose: 24:09 And this is a model that works really well for partners where one person has a vulva and one person has a penis, and if that vulva needs longer, warm up and turn on and really likes all of that play in the beginning of the session, she receives first. And this is the premise of Ian Kerner’s timeless bestselling book, She Comes First. Focus on her pleasure first, unroll that, and then from that place of the person with the vulva being fully aroused, fully turned on, fully activated, ready, then you turn the attention to the penis. It’s a really useful template. Like this is not a script. It’s just a suggestion of an arc of events that rely on this skill of giving and receiving. Because when you’re turning your attention to the person that goes first or the person who’s a focus of attention for the entire night, you’re dropping into that role of giver. And I just want to give a shout out for that because it’s not like this clinical “I’m doing you,” distracted, like, “Blah, I’m not a part of this. I’m feeling bad about that,” kind of nonsense.”

Chris Rose: 25:27 This is a deeply erotic role of turning all of your life force attention, all of your skills, all of your energy, all of your force, all of your power perhaps, onto the desires and needs of your beloved. Even if it’s casual, right? This person you are choosing to share this erotic experience with and you’re like, “I am here for it. I am here for this.” Can you tell I love giving, and receiving is a little harder for me? Giving for me is like the purest form of eroticism, where you’re bringing your entire humanity in the service of pleasure. And it’s through that place, endless pleasure can stream through your body and you can get incredibly aroused and feel so powerful. So when I say being of service, that’s not necessarily submissive, this can be an incredibly powerful role too.

Chris Rose: 26:24 And I hear from a lot of guys that they love to do this. They love to turn their attention onto a pussy, onto a vulva or onto a cock because gay men are just like this too. But a lot of us love to do this, turn all of our attention onto our lover. For a lot of people, the bottleneck in this is people’s ability to receive.

Chris Rose: 26:45 And so I just want to circle back to what you were saying about your massage table and what our capacities are. Because all of those guys were in the presence of one of the most skilled, erotic masseuses in the San Francisco Bay area, probably the world and other galaxies too. And how much pleasure they could receive was up to them. And this is true for so many of us at home where our partner is willing. And this is not true for everyone, like shout out to the people whose partners aren’t willing. There is a different set of things there. But so many people’s partners are willing and we cannot show up and receive. And I know this so intimately because for me when I entered this erotic massage world and I found myself not one erotic masseuse, but surrounded by a room full of them who loved me and were ready to give me any kind of touch.

Chris Rose: 27:36 And on my Friday night I was in a kinky community where I could ask to be strung from the ceiling, my nipples set on fire while I was fucked by three men if I wanted to. That was available for the taking. And all of a sudden I hit this point of like, “Uh, I don’t know how to receive.”

Chris Rose: 27:56 There’s so much to say here about survivors and trauma and if that is true for you, we will have a resource on the show notes page, our free survivor’s toolkit that addresses a ton of this. But it’s also just true for so many of us because we’ve never been asked by a passionate, generous lover with full presence. And we haven’t had the practice of centering our own needs and desires. How often in life do you get to say from this deep place of what’s inside you “This is what I want.” It’s a really advanced skill and so that’s why we start small in the 3-Minute Game, right?

Chris Rose: 28:35 We don’t say, “What do you want? All your sexual fantasies?” That is too big a question for most of us. If we roll it way back, and this is, “I learned this playing the 3-Minute Game in massage classes,” all of a sudden you can get specific. You’re like, “Yeah, my shoulders feel hella tight. Just rub them out.” And you trust them to stay boundaried and so within that boundary, all of this abundance is possible. Within that boundary you can get met fully because you don’t have to be guarded within yourself of what else might happen. What are they going to try? Because they’re not taking, they are giving.

Chris Rose: 29:11 And so if you can say to your lover, “Oh, all I need right now is a long back rub. And then I’m going to clamp my vibrator to my clitoris and have an orgasm and fall asleep. Is that okay?”

Chris Rose: 29:19 And they’re like, “Hell yeah baby. I’m here for it. Let me get the massage oil. Get your vibrator plugged in, let’s go!” You have a clear boundary and you can give yourself fully to that experience. And then tomorrow night there’s a new boundary and a new experience and you talk about it and you open it up and you play together. Woo!

Chris Rose: 29:43 So there’s more to say about giving and receiving. We’ll link to some relevant podcast episodes and resources on the show notes page. We’re going to record the 3-Minute Game practice for you so you have us guiding you. And we hope this conversation has been helpful to you as you integrate this, whether you play the 3-Minute Game or just try it in your bedroom and try to center your lover’s pleasure for a little while, you will notice emotions come up. Emotions about giving, emotions about receiving. And those can be really complicated to unpack. Resentment can rear its head, like, “Why would I give to him? What does he give to me?” And it will reveal shit about your relationship. And this is also why we do these practices, because they give us opportunities to pay attention to things, right?

Chris Rose: 30:32 This practice of centering one person’s desires at a time, of dropping into the role of giving and receiving will reveal stuff not only about yourself. Like I said, as a survivor, it was very hard for me to receive and say what I wanted and trust that I was safe in that. There’s also all of these emotional, relational issues that come up as you do this. And you’ll notice, giving and receiving happens not only in the bedroom but in the relationship, in the family home. What energy, what is being given and what is being received within the relationship, your life? What is your role to giving and receiving in your profession? If you’re a giver all day long, if you’re a social worker, you might want to come home and just be taken, right? And that’s, so many of us, we balance our social life with our sexual fantasies and desires.

Chris Rose: 31:34 But then there’s all these other questions that might come up. And as you are thinking through this, there’s some useful questions to ask about the touch, about the roles of giving and receiving. Questions like, “What is the intention of this touch? Do you want to be relaxed or do you want to be aroused?” Great question to ask.

Charlotte Rose: 31:55 While you’re receiving, a great question to ask yourself is, “What are you paying attention to? Are you paying attention to the sensations in your body? Are you paying attention to your lover’s hands on your body? Are you paying attention to your thoughts?” And you want to redirect your attention back to the sensations in your body or to where the fingertips are touching the contours of your skin.

Chris Rose: 32:21 And as a survivor, sometimes my intention going in was, “I’m just going to pay attention to my breath and stay calm while someone gives me a back massage.” And that was enough to pay attention to and I felt some vague sense of pleasure happening behind that. But my main job was just staying calm and present.

Chris Rose: 32:41 So if you find yourself often distracted during sex, checking out during sex, playing the 3-Minute Game and saying, “Stroke my hair and all I’m going to pay attention to as a receiver is staying calm and present,” that is enough. And that is a noble goal.

Chris Rose: 32:57 And then those things change and all of a sudden you be like, “I want your hands inside me and I want to pay attention to my cervix and what sensations we can find there.” And that takes us back to the erotic massage episode. And you can see how these skills layer upon themselves and start serving you.

Chris Rose: 33:15 When we learn how to pay attention to our lovers hands as they’re massaging our feet, and our foot massage tutorial by the way, is available for free in our Erotic Essentials course. When you can learn how to pay attention to your lover massaging your feet for three minutes, you are developing a really powerful skill that will serve you not only in sex but in your whole life. Because then, as they’re going down on you, if you’ve consented to that and they’re giving all of their attention with their mouth and their breath and their hands to your pussy, you can pay attention to that for three minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, stay with it and notice how much pleasure is available to you.

Chris Rose: 33:57 Because this is the thing and this is that secret, back to the massage table and then we should sign off. But on our massage table, boundless pleasure was available to these bodies. And some were only available to a certain amount. They had a certain capacity. And then they hit their pleasure ceiling and they checked out or they ejaculated. They found a way to distract themselves. We often use distraction when we hit our pleasure capacity. Or we just ejaculate, we orgasm and we end it. We can learn to stretch that pleasure capacity and that is a full body act of paying attention and letting in more pleasure, learning how to build more arousal. And that is all a skill of paying attention to your body in increasing states of arousal and pleasure until you can hold more and more pleasure and ride more and more arousal and you build this skill. And you can build it alone with masturbation. You can build it relationally with your partner.

Chris Rose: 35:06 All right, so the 3-Minute Game, do not undersell it. Because it comes from a lineage that has explored the outer bounds of human erotic capacity and we’re reporting back. So this is not a little clinical exercise that should be taken lightly. It’s easy, it’s simple. You step into it wherever you’re at. With hands at the kitchen table, with feed on the couch, with stroking hair and back and shoulders, and then build up your trust and capacity with one another until you are taking one another on epic, erotic rides.

Chris Rose: 35:42 All right. Come on over to pleasuremechanics.com, all of our resources are there; pleasuremechanics.com/love to support this show. Show your love for what we do in the world and help us keep going. And pleasuremechanics.com/free to get started with our free online course.

Charlotte Rose: 36:01 And all of our other courses are available at pleasuremechanics.com.

Chris Rose: 36:04 Yes, and you can use the code, “speaking of sex” for 20% off the online course of your choice. Get on our newsletter, all the things at pleasuremechanics.com. We are here for and with you. I’m Chris.

Charlotte Rose: 36:17 I’m Charlotte.

Chris Rose: 36:18 We are the Pleasure Mechanics-

Charlotte Rose: 36:20 Wishing you a lifetime of pleasure.

Discover The Love Language Of Touch

We have been teaching the art of erotic touch since 2006 and have guided tens of thousands of lovers to touch with more skill & confidence. Are you next?

Ready to master the art of erotic touch and lavish your lover with pleasure?

Click here to enroll in Erotic Touch Mastery, five erotic touch courses in one bundle!


Start With Just One Stroke…

Sometimes, the path to more pleasure, joy and connection starts with just one stroke.

Here are some of our favorite one-stroke erotic touch techniques that we shared on Instagram.

When you are ready for more stroke-by-stroke guidance, you’ll find links to our online courses pre-loaded with discounts.

We guide you, stroke-by-stroke, in mastering full body touch in our online course Erotic Massage Mastery

Master the art of erotic touch with us in our bestselling online course Erotic Massage Mastery

Speaking Of Sex Podcast Series on Touch

  • Episode 374: The Key To Pleasure & Connection
  • Episode 375: Feeling Myself – Discovering Erotic Interoception
  • Episode 376: Ten Ways To Become A Better Lover
  • Episode 377: Finding Just Right

Why Is Human Touch Important?

  • Here is a quick 3 minute listen from NPR about the full body response to affectionate human touch

Do you ever wonder in longing what other couples are doing to stay connected? Do you ever sense there is something better you could be doing with your free time together, but don’t know quite what to propose to shake things up?

We are obsessed with looking at the patterns and research that points the way towards more pleasure, joy and connection!

In the largest relationship survey ever conducted, researchers asked couples to rate their happiness and satisfaction in bed. Then they dug deep to find out what the happiest couples have in common. The research, released in the New York Times bestseller The Normal Bar, is a fantastic guide to what makes happy couples tick. We got to interview the author and learned so much about what the Happiest Couples have in common!

Here’s one fact we found fascinating: Of the “extremely happy couples” 74% had one thing in common. It has nothing to do with body shape or frequency of sex. It is actually a very easy thing to add to your relationship to improve your happiness, deepen your intimacy and improve your sex life. Ready for the big secret? Back massage!

That’s right, almost three quarters of the couples who reported themselves to be extremely happy share back massage with their partner!

Coincidence? We think not!

Here at PleasureMechanics, we focus as much on couples massage as we do on more traditional sexual skills. That is because we know how beneficial massage is to a relationship. We believe that if you are going to learn one skill to improve your relationship and have a better sex life, full body massage is the best skill to learn.

How can something as simple as a back rub make such a difference in your relationship?

First, massage is love in action. When your partner spends their time and attention focused on giving you the pure pleasure of massage, you feel loved and cared for. Nothing brings a couple closer than a regular practice of lavishing one another with skilled, pleasurable touch.

The second reason massage is so good for a relationship is that it helps slay stress. Stress is enemy #1 of your sex life. Stress kills your libido, drains your energy and ultimately makes you miserable. Sharing massage with your lover is an effective and efficient way to destress at the end of your day while spending quality time together. Less stress means more pleasure, higher sex drive and a better sex life.

Finally, back massage is one of the most luxurious and pleasurable experiences of full body touch. The skin on skin contact from back massage releases feel good hormones that contribute to your overall wellness and happiness.

Back massage is an infusion of health and joy into your daily life together. Imagine being able to afford going to the spa three times a week for a great massage. Do you think you’d be happier and healthier? Now imagine getting the same quality massage from your lover at home anytime you wish. What could be better?

Sharing massage with your lover doesn’t have to be hard or take lots of time. You don’t need to set aside an hour at a time or buy any expensive equipment. We believe so much in the power of couple’s massage that we designed an online video course just for you. We reveal the secrets of professional quality massage so you can give a great massage on your first try. We even show you how to give an amazing massage in as little as five minutes so you can get all the benefits of massage on even your busiest days.

Ready to get started? Come check out our Couples Massage Mastery Course and give it a try risk-free.

Like all of our courses, if you don’t love it, if sharing massage doesn’t make you happier, get in touch within 30 days and we’ll refund your purchase, no questions asked.

Now go grab some massage oil and get ready to join the prestigious club of “extremely happy couples!”

Sexuality, Disability, Chronic Illness and Chronic Pain

This page is a living document to share resources related to sexuality, disability, chronic illness and chronic pain. This is a HUGE topic and the links shared on this page each do an amazing job from different perspectives. If you have resources that you feel belong on this page, please email them to us at chris – at – pleasuremechanics.com

Whatever your new reality, you are not alone. Whatever you are experiencing, it has been felt before. For many people, this simple truth can be deeply comforting to take in and remember in moments of overwhelm.

It can be powerful to build community around your new normal. Online communities can offer invaluable resources, emotional support and community news to keep you up to date on your conditions.

Strategies To Find Community

  • Ask your medical team for referrals to online or local groups
  • Search [your condition] on Instagram and look for accounts you resonate with
  • Search [your condition] on Facebook and look for groups with a vibrant membership. Expect to quit many groups you join – each group has it’s own pace and culture
  • Search [your condition] + “activism” and look for groups advocating for your community, research and treatment options, and then get involved!

Conversation Starters

Use these conversations starters to begin a dialogue with your lovers, friends and family – or to reflect or journal on solo!

  • What’s your diagnosis?
    • Getting common language about what you are experiencing is important. Make sure you, your medical team and your community are on the same page about what you are experiencing! 
  • What’s your daily experience now? How variable is it? 
  • How much pain are you experiencing? Where? What does it feel like? Is it predictable?
  • What changes have there been in your day-to-day activity?
  • What are you feeling afraid of?
  • What are you feeling angry about?
  • What are you feeling grateful for?
  • What kind of support do you need more of?
  • What experiences are you longing for?
  • What are you worried about not experiencing again?
  • What do you feel left out of, socially?
  • How has your erotic or sexual life changed?
  • Do you have any worries about your sex life you want to talk about?

Recalibrating Pleasure, Joy & Belonging

Pleasure

  • What is bringing me the most pleasure right now?
  • What senses are still open to pleasure? What senses are tender or painful to engage?
  • What are you curious about right now?
  • What is one thing you could take away from your bedroom and one thing you could add to make it a more pleasurable space for you to be in?


Joy

  • How has your illness or injury impacted your sense of purpose in the world?
  • What are you most looking forward to?
  • What are you excited about right now?


Belonging

  • Where does your communities gather? Are these spaces still accessible and comfortable for you?
  • Are there alternate ways you could engage with your community?
  • How has your role in your family changed?
  • How has your role at work changed?
  • Do you feel like a burden to your caregivers?
  • What are ways you can contribute more, with your current limitations respected?
  • Who do you want to talk to? Who do you want to listen to you? 

Map Your Love Pod

A powerful concept from the Disability Justice movement is that of “pods” – the very real networks of people and service providers that surround each of us! Living with illness or disability means we MUST map out our local support community and take stock of all the support we have – and where we might need to intentionally fill in some gaps.

Read more about pods and get pod mapping worksheets here.

What has changed?

After illness, injury or any other huge change, it is important to be honest about what has changed. What are the big adjustments you will have to make – and what is actually still pretty normal underneath all the other changes? What is your body up for? What are you wanting? What are you capable of?

The answers to these big questions will change over time, so the important thing is to be able to check in and communicate clearly about what is real for you, right now.

Areas to keep checking in with:

  • Diagnosis, Illness, Injury, Medications, Side Effects
  • Sensory changes – sensitivity to light, smells, touch
  • Mood and personality changes
  • Energy, Stamina & Fatigue
  • Intellectual and emotional changes

Remember, no matter what your body is up to right now, you are wholly human and inherently worthy of being loved, cherished and respected.

What do you want to feel?

Sex is a big word that contains a lot of human experience, feeling and emotion within three little letters. 

We need to get more specific than “I miss sex”  – what are you longing for? What are you wanting to experience? What do you miss? What are you craving?

Here are a few podcast episodes to help you start thinking about the many factors of your erotic life as you adjust to a new normal

  • Spontaneous Vs. Responsive Desire
  • Dual Model Control Of Arousal : Learn about the “gas and brakes” model of arousal
  • Your Body Is Good Enough
  • What Do You Want?

Experiencing Pelvic Pain?

If your illness, injury or other big change has left you experiencing pelvic pain or sexual pain, here are some resources to help you address that. 

You don’t have to suffer in silence. There are trained professionals ready to support you and assist you! 

  • The Pelvic Pain Assessment is an interactive survey through pain symptoms inclusive of sexual health and life quality. Once the assessment is complete, the result is a printable PDF that serves as a tool to facilitate patient doctor communication and referrals.
  • Pelvic Floor Professional help:
    • Dr. UC at YouSeeLogic.com
    • Dr. UC on Instagram
    • You can locate a pelvic health physical therapist near you here or here.

Books, Articles & Compassionate Education

  • This Is How We Do It Vice article series featuring first person narratives about sex with a wide range of conditions and disabilities
  • Pain Is Really Strange
  • The Ultimate Guide to Sex and Disability
  • Dating With a Disability
    Advice from Robin Wilson-Beattie, “inclusionista sexpert” on navigating dating and sex with a disability.
  • Disability Justice Resources
  • 10 Principles of Disability Justice

Educators, Artists & Creators

  • Disability After Dark is a fantastic podcast hosted by queer crip (his words) Andrew Gurza and features interviews about sex, disability, ableism, queerness and more.
  • Chronic Sex
  • Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha is a queer disabled femme writer, organizer, performance artist and educator of Burgher/Tamil Sri Lankan and Irish/Roma ascent.
  • Sins Invalid: Sins Invalid is a disability justice performance project that centers people of color, queers, nonbinary and trans people with disabilities.

Become A More Satisfied Mama with Dana B Myers

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Tune in on: Spotify | RSS

Image of white woman with red curly hair, sitting comfortably and smiling warmly. Text reads Become A More Satisfied Mama with Dana B Myers, Speaking of Sex Podcast Episode # 348

Did becoming a parent change your erotic life? Of course it did! Kids change everything – your experience of your body, time, freedom, personal space and mental load will never be the same! As parents, our priorities change, and that keeps our species going. But kids don’t have to mean the end of your erotic life – as parents we can still choose to prioritize pleasure and connection with our partners – but it isn’t easy, and often takes a deliberate effort and framework to make it happen.

On this episode, the wonderful Dana B Myers joins us to talk about the process of reconnecting to our erotic lives as new parents. How do we give ourselves permission to take time and space away from our kids? How do we slay the mom guilt and focus on our own needs for half a minute? What dynamics with our partners help support a more sensual life – and what are the major roadblocks that get in the way?

More Resources On Sex & Parenting:

  •  INTIMATE RELATIONSHIPS 101 : An online course with the ever wise therapist and author Dr. Alexandra Solomon (hear about our experience with this course here!)
  • Sex After Baby: Speaking of Sex Podcast Episodes Part 1 and Part 2

Becoming a parent changes all aspects of your life, forever – including your erotic life. There is no going back to a “pre-baby body” or the time and freedom you had with your partner before welcoming a child. There is no going back – but we CAN choose to move forward into a more joyful and playful relationship with our sensuality and sexuality.

Click here for a complete transcript of this episode.


Please note: links in the post are affiliate links, and if you enroll in Dana’s program she will share a portion of the sale with us. We are a sponsor-free, community supported educators and only share resources that we personally recommend and stand behind.


The Origin Of Erotic Massage : Joseph Kramer Interview Part 1

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Tune in on: Spotify | RSS

Meet our great erotic mentor, Joseph Kramer, Ph.D. and hear the story of how a gay boy born into a Catholic family followed his path to become an erotic pioneer and visionary.

Joseph Kramer, Ph.D.

In this intimate interview between student and mentor, Joseph Kramer shares his life story about discovering masturbation as a devout Catholic boy, leaving the Jesuits to celebrate being a gay man in New York City, and how he discovered the power of massage and breath. He generously shares the stories of the explorations and education that he gathered together as he developed the formal Erotic Massage modality that has spread around the world through his vast network of students, his educational videos and the professions he has pioneered. Check out his work and educate your heart and hands here!google.comOrgasmicYoga.com

Click here for Part 2 of the Joseph Kramer interview

Joseph Kramer has trained the world in the art of erotic touch, erotic breathwork and the profound presence that unlocks extraordinary erotic states. He is not satisfied with “paltry sex” and insists upon the exploration of the far reaches of what is erotically possible.

Joseph Kramer is a primary mentor of both the Pleasure Mechanics – in fact Chris and Charlotte met during a Sexological Bodywork training, and both are trained in the Body Electric lineage.

Joseph Kramer is founder of the Body Electric School, which still runs under new leadership and the New School of Erotic Touch. He has been teaching about erotic embodiment, somatic sex education and pleasure activism for over 40 years.

Currently, he shares his erotic wisdom at OrgasmicYoga.com and guides the global development of the Sexological Bodywork profession.


  • Joseph Kramer & Annie Sprinkle
  • Joseph Kramer & Annie Sprinkle
  • Annie Sprinkle, Joseph Kramer & Barbara Carrellas
  • Joseph Kramer, photographed by
    Rick McGinnis for the Village Voice, 1992
  • Joseph Kramer, photographed by
    Rick McGinnis for the Village Voice, 1992

Image credits: Thanks to Joseph Kramer and Annie Sprinkle for sharing personal photos. Thanks also to Rick McGinnis for images shot for the Village Voice in 1992.


Transcript of Podcast Episode The Origin Of Erotic Massage : Joseph Kramer Interview Part 1

Podcast transcripts are generated with love by humans, and thus may not be 100% accurate. Time stamps are included so you can cross reference or jump to any point in the podcast episode above. THANKS to the members of our Pleasure Pod for helping make transcripts and the rest of our free offerings happen! If you love what we offer, find ways to show your love and dive deeper with us here: SHOW SOME LOVE

Chris Rose: 00:00 Welcome to Speaking of Sex, with the Pleasure Mechanics. I’m Chris from Pleasuremechanics.com. And on this podcast, we have soulful, explicit conversations about every facet of human sexuality. Come on over to pleasuremechanics.com where you will find our complete podcast archive. And while you are there, go to pleasuremechanics.com/free to sign up for our free online course, The Erotic Essentials. That’s pleasuremechanics.com/free and you will find our free course to get started.

Chris Rose: 00:39 I’m so excited for today’s episode because I have the distinct pleasure of introducing you to my great erotic mentor, [Joseph Kramer 00:00:48] Joseph Kramer is an erotic pioneer and visionary. He was born a gay boy in the 1950s to a devoutly Catholic family. Now, he’s 72 years old, living in Oakland, California, and his lifetime has been one of erotic service to the world.

Chris Rose: 01:12 He left his life as a Jesuit priest after discovering the reverent power of touch when he got his first massage. Joe is going to tell us his story of discovering the power of massage and breathwork together as he took Psilocybin mushrooms and shared blowjobs with his friends, and how this all crystallized into the practice of erotic massage, the combination of full-body massage, erotic touch, conscious breathwork and exquisite presence that creates one of the most exquisite, erotic experiences that I’ve ever known.

Chris Rose: 01:59 Joe went on to teach erotic massage all around the world in workshops, in professional trainings. He codified the category of erotic massage. And in this interview, he’s going to tell that story of how a little gay boy from a Catholic family, went on to become a global leader of sex wisdom.

Chris Rose: 02:26 This interview is so deeply personal to me because Joseph Kramer initiated me into my life of erotic service. I had been a sex educator before I met Joe, but when [Annie Sprinkle 00:02:40] introduced me to Joseph Kramer, that was my initiation into a life of erotic service. Into a life guiding others into what is possible in these human bodies of ours. What is possible, not only in terms of pleasure and erotic trance, and erotic ecstasy, and the amount of pleasure we can give one another, that’s part of what Joe taught me. But Joe also initiated me into these practices that teach us how big we can love. How much we can show up for one another.

Chris Rose: 03:17 Charlotte and I met in a training that Joe and I were teaching together, one of the first Sexological Bodywork trainings in San Francisco. So, Charlotte and I met very much through this work, so my love story with Charlotte and my family would also not have been possible if I was not working side-by-side with Joe. And while my life has been touched so deeply by Joe’s, and therefore your life, if you’re a listener of this podcast, that is just one of the ripple effects of his work, because he has trained tens of thousands of students. He has initiated so many people into a life of erotic curiosity and erotic service.

Chris Rose: 04:05 And from working with Joe, I know he doesn’t love to give interviews, he doesn’t do it often. So, I was really honored when he agreed to a long-form two-hour interview with me. And rather than start at the end, rather than start with all of his global accomplishments, and his schools, and the professions he has founded, and to talk about the global reach of his erotic knowledge, I wanted to start at the beginning. I wanted to hear his life story as it unfolded and share that with you as a story of an erotic pioneer, who’s curiosity and commitment to love and to pleasure created a life of erotic service to the world.

Chris Rose: 04:55 So, we are going to start at the beginning as he is born a little gay boy into a devoutly Catholic family and we are going to tell his story together. Gather round and join me for part one of my interview with Joseph Kramer, PhD. Cheers.

Chris Rose: 05:18 Hi, Joe.

Joseph Kramer: 05:20 Hello, Chris Rose.

Chris Rose: 05:23 So, Joseph Kramer, you are born a gay boy in a Catholic family in St. Louis.

Joseph Kramer: 05:31 Exactly.

Chris Rose: 05:31 Can you take us to that moment of your birth? How did the Catholic context of your childhood shape you from the beginning?

Joseph Kramer: 05:42 I don’t have a lot of memories about very early childhood. I have a couple I’ll mention. My mother and father were rabid Catholics. Not in the sense today of a rigid and political-type sense, but in a spiritual sense. So, they went to mass every single day. Every single day they went to church. There were times of travel, and obviously, they couldn’t, but this was part of it.

Joseph Kramer: 06:14 Part of my upbringing was family prayers, family rosary. Of course, prayers before meals and going to Catholic schools. The question came up, actually, and this was a question that was around in the 50s, can we talk to the Protestant kids in the neighborhood. Can we associate with them? There was an unspoken arrogance like we were saved and the protestants aren’t, the other people aren’t. But my parents didn’t say we couldn’t talk to the Protestant kids.

Joseph Kramer: 06:47 So, it was a really closed system. The values, especially the religion and spirituality. And it was definitely bifurcated. Pleasure was almost a bad thing. It was un-embodied. Our time on this earth, right from the time I was five and six years old, our time on this earth was just testing us for the real thing, which was heaven. We were watched at all time. God was watching at all time.

Joseph Kramer: 07:21 And I bought into this. I knew nothing else. How wonderful, God is taking care of us. I found the life of Jesus, especially his messages, the seminar on the mount, et cetera, wonderful. I didn’t quite understand the death and resurrection part of it. I don’t know if anybody totally understands that. But I bought into this. I didn’t even buy into it, it was all that I knew. It’s what I drank. It was like a fish in water.

Joseph Kramer: 07:54 I didn’t understand at the beginning, the anti-body and anti-sex. But I remember at about age three, and this is my earliest memory. I was taking an afternoon nap, I was laying face down, I had my hands in my underwear, and I was about three years old, and my mother said, don’t touch yourself there, God doesn’t like if you touch yourself there. And this was one of the first messages that I got directly to me about something I was doing that God didn’t like. And it was touching my own genitals.

Joseph Kramer: 08:38 There was no reflection, it was a reaction that stayed with me to the present. I remembered that. So, the genitals became this special place that God cared about. I could touch my elbow, or my feet, or my head, and God didn’t care. But if I touched my genitals, it was kind of like the story of the garden of Eden. You have the whole garden, but this one tree, you cannot eat the fruit of that tree. And of course, like Eve, as I grew a little older, and I’m not talking puberty, I think five or six, I started touching myself there because this is the taboo place.

Joseph Kramer: 09:19 I don’t know where this came from in me, but I learned to masturbate very early. And I learned to rub myself and it felt good. I had orgasms, and I remember them. And later, when I’ve studied this, perhaps 10% of kids masturbate very early on and have orgasmic experiences. Boys and girls and everybody around that and in between that.

Chris Rose: 09:50 Was that pleasure burdened by a sense of shame already?

Joseph Kramer: 09:53 No. Well, except that one thing from my mother. And I didn’t quite hook it together. I was masturbating. But in first grade or second grade comes the idea of confession in the Catholic school. And then the priest brings up one of the things that you might want to confess, and he’s telling these six and seven-year-olds, is if you touch yourself in an impure way, that was the terminology, and I was thinking, uh oh, that’s the name for it. I’m touching myself in an impure way.

Joseph Kramer: 10:38 But I didn’t quite get the concept of hell and mortal sin. It didn’t hook up until a little later. About puberty, again, the same priest and others said this is to test yourself here, will take you to hell forever and ever. And you’re put here by God out of love to do this experiment. And by touching yourself, you could go to hell. If you die without going to confession, you go to hell. So, I believed this.

Joseph Kramer: 11:15 That started maybe at 12, that every time I touched myself, I knew I had to go to confession. I knew I couldn’t go to communion. This is very interesting, because this is what I’m exploring right now. I’m realizing with all the emphasis on trauma, that there’s a large swath, if that’s the right word, of the culture that has had not specific moments of trauma, but in their upbringing, it might be culturally, for me it was spiritual, and I think a lot of people grew up with this exact belief system.

Joseph Kramer: 11:49 When I went to high school, to jump ahead of it, I went to a Catholic Jesuit high school, they had mass three days a week and they had confessions before class, confession during mass, confessions during break. And I would say, out of 800 boys, a couple hundred, maybe more than that, went to confession every day. There was just this unspoken thing of why you’re going to confession.

Joseph Kramer: 12:20 As long as we’re here, what happened after masturbation, my penis, this arousal, this pleasure, was, the prase early-on, was the crack in the cosmic egg. I was in this system, and this was the thing, I didn’t know it, but this was the thing that was going to be the crack to get me out of this closed system.

Joseph Kramer: 12:46 I would masturbate, and then I would go into terror. And I mean, actual terror. That if I died. And I would lay and I would think flames all over my body and that I was forever and ever. I can’t imagine that this was less worse than some of the other trauma terrors that people go through. And yet, this was thousands of times, because I masturbated a lot.

Joseph Kramer: 13:16 And every time, I had to go to confession, had the intention that you weren’t going to do this again. That was part of it. So, there was this system that placed huge emphasis on sexual arousal and pleasure and the body, and avoiding it. And the irony is, that when I broke out of this, this was what was important to me, still. And so, my work became about pleasure, and body, and an emphasis on starting with masturbation and penis.

Joseph Kramer: 13:50 I think it’s still there, and no wonder there’s so much drinking among, the Irish, they said, but among Catholics. It’s kind of a numbing out of body. It’s a physical way of being in alignment with the religious beliefs. And I haven’t seen a lot of speaking to this trauma that people carry. And I know other religious backgrounds, other ethnic backgrounds have similar suffocating beliefs.

Joseph Kramer: 14:24 When I was going to sex school, one man, a Mormon bishop came and got his PHD at the same time as I did. And he did his PHD on masturbation in the Mormon church. And there, there’s no confession, so, once you masturbate, you’re impure. And what his dissertation was, was suicide among boys because of this. And it goes on. They still teach this. And homosexuality and other body-based things that are not heterosexual marriage.

Joseph Kramer: 15:04 So, anyway, that was my experience as a kid. But the masturbation was an entrance, and why I kept going back to it, it was an entrance into some other way of feeling. There was an aliveness that I was in touch with. And that is still a major theme. That’s why I do what I do. Get in touch with the aliveness within. Our own aliveness. This is who we are, alive. We can call it embodiment today, but in those days, that was my embodiment practice, although in the system I was in, it was a horrible thing. Luckily hormones or whatever, I kept at it.

Chris Rose: 15:49 Let’s tell that story a little bit. So, you didn’t run fleeing as soon as you turned 18. Instead, you actually went deeper into your faith and joined the Jesuits. And as much as we can talk about the Catholic body shame and the sexual shame and that as a burden you carried from your faith, you also brought some gifts from your faith. Your love of teaching, your knowledge of pedagogy.

Chris Rose: 16:17 So, you were in the Jesuit community for several years. And then one of your theology teachers went to Esalen and trained in massage and came home and offered massage. He was newly indoctrinated and wanted to practice. Can you take us to that moment as a theology student and receiving your first massage, and how what you call the crack in the egg split right open.

Joseph Kramer: 16:46 I was still in this closed system, I would say. And what happened in late puberty, late high school, is I understood I was attracted to other boys and not girls. And in those days, I didn’t see homosexuality mentioned anywhere, except in prisons. And I remember being a 13 and 14-year-old saying is there some way I could commit a crime and get in prison, so I could be with people who would do with I do. Except I was the best little boy. I didn’t want to commit [inaudible 00:17:23].

Joseph Kramer: 17:23 So, I knew this was sinful, and I go, there’s no future for me as a person, except what the church offers, the milieu I was in was some status and to be of service by being a priest. So, this was a logical choice. I went to a Jesuit high school. There were 30 different teachers that I respected and revered. And they all seemingly had no sex, no masturbation, and this was the goal, the ideal. And they were doing it well and relating, and teaching, and being of service. My high school years were a great time.

Joseph Kramer: 18:06 So, at the end of high school, I go, yeah, this is the path that I’d like to do. I’d like to follow. I didn’t think, I don’t have any other options, but I wasn’t thinking other options. But in terms of this huge thing about sin, that was the only option that I had. So, I joined the Jesuits and was in the Jesuits 10 years.

Joseph Kramer: 18:28 I was studying theology eight years into the Jesuits in Berkeley. Luckily, I somehow got to Berkeley to study.

Chris Rose: 18:37 Was that a deliberate choice? Did you know there were gay people there and you went?

Joseph Kramer: 18:43 No. But, there’s certain things that are emblazoned on my mind, and I remember watching television in 1963 and seeing the free speech movement starting in Berkeley campus. And there were riots and Reagan was the governor. And I remember watching this, but it was all over free speech. I felt muzzled, of course, at the time. I was in high school. But I felt this aliveness. I couldn’t speak, there were no words. So, I went into the Jesuits.

Joseph Kramer: 19:20 And again, this was blissful because it was a celibate, non-masturbatory place, but it was with men who were idealistic boys, 17, 18, 19-year-olds. It was wonderful to be in that comradery and seemingly the part that was evil in me was being stamped down in a sense, or quieted.

Joseph Kramer: 19:48 I went through this and it was an education of the mind, it was an education of thinking. Jesuits are the thinkers and the teachers of the church and they run institutions, they run universities, and colleges, and have for the last 400 years. So, I thought this was a wonderful path, and it was a path of service. This is really one of the big things I took from Jesus, to be of service. And even from my parents, as Christians, that was big for them, was service. My father, especially.

Joseph Kramer: 20:30 So, to be a Jesuit. And I was in Berkeley, and I was studying theology. And theology is like mathematics. Like other things, it has almost no touch with reality, with the reality of the body. And yet, I was in California, Berkeley in the early 70s. There was just amazing things happening, bodily, but I didn’t connect with them for a few years. But I did intersect with them once, and you started the story.

Joseph Kramer: 21:03 A priest, who was my academic advisor went to Esalen and took a weekend workshop and came back. And I remember, there were maybe 200, 150 Jesuits who were in Berkeley in smaller groups, but we ate in a big dining room. And I remember sitting at a table with about six other young Jesuits, and this priest came back and said, I had a wonderful weekend. I went and studied Esalen massage down in Big Sur. And I need to practice. If any of you would like a massage, let me know.

Joseph Kramer: 21:40 There was this panic in all the people around me, and I looked. There was a thing in me that says yes. Right away, I said, yes, I would like that. And he said, well you need a massage table, it needs to be on a massage table. I remember taking the door off my closet in my room and tying it to my desk and putting blankets over it and all this. And I was really nervous because I was gonna be naked, because I was going to be touched. And I thought, but he’s a priest. Even my parents would be okay with this.

Joseph Kramer: 22:22 So, anyway, I got a massage, and it was a two-hour massage and he was meticulous. My attention, there was no distractions. My attention was at the point of contact for two hours. And I was feeling my body in ways that I never, ever felt before. There was not a fear that all of a sudden something was going to happen sexually, or that I get aroused, or all this, although I was naked. It was just feeling what was happening.

Joseph Kramer: 22:57 He went through my body up my face, my head, all the way down. Not my genitals, not my anal area. But everywhere else. And I do remember vividly the webbing in my feet and in my hands when he was doing this, especially in my feet. I knew I had webbing between my toes, but it was so delicious, I was so awake. He said, thank you and gave me this and left. And I realized that that was the most important two hours of education that I’d had in my whole life. I was introduced to my body.

Joseph Kramer: 23:40 And I want to say I had one other practice other than masturbation. And that was at age 14, I was in the car with my family a couple miles from my home, we were jogging home, and I got in an argument with my father. We were at loggerheads. He was at a stoplight and I just opened the door and got out and then he drove off. And I go, I’m two miles from home, how am I going to get home? And so, remembered I’d read about this senator from Wisconsin, Proxmire, I think. Someone who jogged. And I went that’s interesting. Nobody jogged in these days. I thought, I’ll try jogging. I was 14 or 13.

Joseph Kramer: 24:31 And so, I started doing running. And I ran two miles home. When I got home I was ecstatic. I started out like this, I just had this thing with my father, and I got out two miles from my home. I ran two miles. So, the next day, I went out and ran around the blocks, and the next day. When I was in Freshman year of high school, I joined the cross country team. And I was terrible, because I didn’t run fast, but I ran long distances for that ectasy. So, I found that as a practice. So I found masturbation and running were my two practices.

Joseph Kramer: 25:09 Now when this happened, this massage, there was a third entry, a third practice into my body. By the way, when I had that massage, I had been running for years every day, so I ran between five and 10 miles a day to feel. It was to feel aliveness, and I didn’t listen to anything. It was being with my body, like masturbation was being with my body or like the massage was.

Joseph Kramer: 25:41 Anyway, after the massage, I go, I want more massages. I was a Jesuit, I didn’t have any money. And I found, I don’t know how I can get money to get massages, but I had thought, I need more massage.

Chris Rose: 26:01 What did you do?

Joseph Kramer: 26:02 After that, I didn’t recognize that that was the beginning, but that was the beginning of the Jesuits are not a place for me. I need a place where I can get massage. Where I can get into a full-body feeling. I knew about my penis feeling. I knew the general feeling of running. But this was a sensuality of certain tissues that I’d never accessed.

Chris Rose: 26:25 Did you change the way you masturbated after that massage?

Joseph Kramer: 26:28 So, there were times in my Jesuit years when I masturbated, but I was still not a practice. It was a sin, still, and I believed that. In fact, I remember the first time I masturbated as a Jesuit. It was three years into the Jesuits, and I was in Denver. I went out with this friend of mine, who’s a priest now, he’s a seminarian. He says, do you want to smoke grass. We smoked grass and I said, I don’t feel anything. Then went back to my room, I just laid down, and all of a sudden I was touching myself and I couldn’t stop. It was so amazing.

Joseph Kramer: 27:10 So, the first time I smoked grass was the first time I masturbated. I was certainly guilty, but the grass was an access into the aliveness, into the feelings. The gift of being embodied in our body. And theologically, I was saying this is what incarnation is. The idea of God becomes man. And so the flesh takes on this role. And I go yes, it’s a celebration of my flesh.

Joseph Kramer: 27:38 I knew after that massage from my academic director. And he was my academic director and he gave me information and experience that got me out of the academics. And I left the Jesuits within a year.

Chris Rose: 27:54 And you moved to new york city.

Joseph Kramer: 27:56 I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I knew I didn’t want to go back to St. Louis and the milieu I grew up in, so I moved to New York City, yes. And I also knew I was gay.

Joseph Kramer: 28:13 It’s a long story, but the short part of it is, after that waking up, I was much more open. And I told the Jesuits that I was gay. I was in Berkeley. There were people who were out gay. And the Jesuits were freaked out. The head of the school said no one’s ever come in here and told me that. I go, like one-third or one-half of these people are gay, no one’s ever told you that?

Joseph Kramer: 28:42 So, the Jesuits sent me to Toronto, and in Toronto, my spiritual advisor said, you know what, they’re not going to ordain you as a priest. They think you’re too much of a liability just saying you’re gay. They don’t want that out. They don’t want anybody as a Jesuit is gay. And he says why don’t you take a leave of absence, which was a wonderful thing. He was really a wonderful man. That took me to New York City.

Joseph Kramer: 29:11 And I knew I was gay, so I thought, I’m going to meet gay people. I started by going to gay Catholic masses with Dignity. And it was a wonderful, vibrant group of men and women, who so many of them had histories just like me. They were going to mass still in their 20s and 30s and 40s because this was important to them, but they were also gay and sexual. So, that was my first couple of years.

Joseph Kramer: 29:44 In New York, I met a lover very quickly, moved in with him. I had other loves. I was never monogamous. And what I recognized is another way out for me was sex. It was amazing. Every time I had sex, it was this extraordinary experience. It wasn’t paltry. I know a lot of sex and a lot of masturbation can be paltry, and that’s why I went this direction of teaching and my whole life. This is such an amazing potential in this activity we call sex with yourself, or with others.

Chris Rose: 30:28 I want to slow this down. So, this is 1975?

Joseph Kramer: 30:35 76-80 I was in New York, yes.

Chris Rose: 30:39 So this is pre-AIDS gay culture in New York City.

Joseph Kramer: 30:42 Yes, that was important.

Chris Rose: 30:44 Was this your initiation also to communal erotic experience? The bathhouses, the peers, there was a lot of gay sex communal culture at that time.

Joseph Kramer: 30:58 Yes, it was. The communal aspect of life was what was impressed upon me in my 10 years as a Jesuit. And it kind of flowed out of Catholic family life, the communal life, and working together as a commune. Jesuits teaching in schools together. The great work of life was done as a commune. So, your work and your play and your living was communal.

Joseph Kramer: 31:25 So, when I came out in New York, there’s this subculture. In the late 70s, there wasn’t many people, and probably it was mostly people who were very gay, Kinsey sixes. But it wasn’t above the radar. So, there were bathhouses, and bars, and places, but it was like a private realm. And by that, I mean, there was a lot of freedom. I felt huge amounts of freedom within this, of ways to relate to people.

Joseph Kramer: 32:05 I’m verbal, I was trained by the Jesuits in philosophy, and theology, and mathematics. And so, words were always part of it. So, whenever I was playing, words were a part of it. And I don’t mean talking dirty. I wanted to find out who this person was. Hey, do you like this? What’s going on here. When was the first time you ever did this. And shut up, I’m having sex. I got that a lot.

Joseph Kramer: 32:29 But yes, it was this communal aspect. Even with my partner, my lover, we had close friends, and they would come over and have dinner and we’d have sex together. So, it was very common that sex was a communal thing. And there wasn’t the fear of STDs or especially AIDS. And certainly, if there was, gonorrhea was probably the major one. You go to the clinic. I think I got gonorrhea once. I know I went to the clinic once or twice, I don’t know if I got gonorrhea, but there was no fear around having sex would be deadly or something really terrible for our health. So, hygiene wasn’t a big deal.

Joseph Kramer: 33:24 But it was an ectatic time. And most of the people who were out as gay, had to be really pioneers or explorers, or people who were expelled from their realities. There was this amazing group of people who had been involved in other communities but now were forming their own, finding their own.

Joseph Kramer: 33:48 I was in New York for three years. Later I learned about Wilhelm Reich and he said orgasms shake the pathology side of your body. That was one of his ideas. That an orgasmic capacity was about well-being. So, I think what was happening there was a Reichian therapy that I went through of vibrating out of my being. And it was heartful, too. I knew all these other people were aliens. We were aliens to the culture, and yet, we were making connections. I met amazing people and I have life-long friends from that period.

Joseph Kramer: 34:37 I had this, I called it sparking, and it was that when you meet people, you’re bringing your best, you’re bringing something and you spark, and there’s something that happens and you take away from that person. So, the sex was sparking. There are all these men who are empowering each other and giving gifts, and that’s kind of how I saw sex in those days. We’re doing this amazing thing. So, I had a ball.

Joseph Kramer: 35:05 And I realized other people came with more wounds and less enthusiasm. Everybody wasn’t in the same boat that I was in. When I later talked to people who we looked back on this, I was like a cheerleader. I put a lot of energy into this and people appreciated it. But it was this communal experience that influenced my work for the rest of my life was the communal erotic experience.

Joseph Kramer: 35:42 And I named it later. I go, I’m trying to think of a name for this. This is a co-created erotic vibratory force field, and that was as close as I could get to it, that there was, you could cut it with a knife sometimes what was created. So, yeah, that was my New York initiation into gay culture and co-creating gay culture at that time.

Chris Rose: 36:13 So, you’re in New York, you went back to the bay area and took an Esolen class, and then you came back to New York and started teaching your community.

Joseph Kramer: 36:24 I thought maybe I want to finish my degree in theology. I left the Jesuits with one quarter. I had one more quarter for a Master of Divinity. So, I went back for a month, just to see. And during this month I saw an ad for Esolen massage class. Four weeks for gay men. This is exactly what I’d like to learn. It was cheap, it was like $60 for a four-week class. Milo Jarvis, thank you, Milo.

Joseph Kramer: 36:56 But I went back to New York, and I now had a structure. And this is one thing the Jesuits taught me, was to teach. So, they’re teachers. And to start schools was a big deal for them. So, I offered a class. So, the very first massage class I offered was probably 79 to a group of Dignity people.

Chris Rose: 37:19 A group of gay Catholics.

Joseph Kramer: 37:21 Mm-hmm (affirmative). I remember I asked somebody to bring the music because we needed music, and he didn’t. And we were at this place a weekend away, and there was only one record. This was the year of records, still. And it was flute music inside the Taj Mahal. And sometimes I can’t listen to it because we played it over and over, but it was beautiful to this massage weekend.

Joseph Kramer: 37:50 It felt right teaching massage. I had taught English, I had taught religion. And there was one moment, Chris, when I said, I love teaching with my clothes off and everybody else’s clothes are off. How can I go back to teaching with my clothes on? So that was another watershed right there. Wow, teaching with your clothes off. It started there.

Chris Rose: 38:16 Teaching with your clothes off, but also ushering a group of people into this embodied state of massage. This is a gift you gave me of being the facilitator of that is a deeply moving experience. I know exactly what you mean.

Chris Rose: 38:36 So, this is 1979. How did the massage become the daoist erotic massage? How did this massage become erotic for you?

Joseph Kramer: 38:48 Let me first mention that this massage, in my gay non-stop sex, huge amounts of sex in New York, it wasn’t very hands and massage-oriented. It was sex. It was play. But hands take a little more skill, I guess. Or maybe not. But hands wasn’t part of it. So, for me, I was now had something new to introduce to my repertoire. In fact, I felt in New York, that casual intercourse, and people were not using condoms at that time, I just felt that this was private. This was between me and my lover. And that other types of sex, oral sex, blow jobs, and other things were what I did out in the world. But I didn’t know massage yet.

Joseph Kramer: 39:52 So, what happened after I learned massage, I actually moved back to the Bay area. I had a group of friends, and so we started giving each other massage with oral sex. So, I became good, I called it blowjob massage. I’m giving somebody a massage, I’m at the massage table sucking their cock and I’m massaging and waking up parts of their body while the pleasure, the excitement’s being generated, and I’m moving it around the body.

Joseph Kramer: 40:21 And the idea was never to become quickly, it was to not come. It was to feel your whole body. There was a second element here. One of my friends was really into psilocybin mushrooms. And I explored during my Berkeley years with LSD and mushrooms. But LSD was an eight, or 10, or 12-hour trip and psilocybin mushrooms was two, or three, or four, so it was more doable.

Joseph Kramer: 40:49 We would take mushrooms and receive and give these massages. Right now, I just bought a book yesterday, How to Change your Mind by Michael Pollan.

Chris Rose: 41:03 It’s on my bedside table, Joe.

Joseph Kramer: 41:05 Your bedside table. Well, what I understand is how to change your mind is psychedelics. And I go, whoa, I have to find out his approach.

Chris Rose: 41:14 A lot of what he talks about is the kind of breaking of the monitor of propriety, of the self-regulation that keeps us kind of caged. And so much of what we know about the erotic is the need to give ourselves permission to go to the ectatic. These states that we’re talking about, most people have never received permission to even think about, let alone explore. And psilocybin, I think, is one of those shortcuts to cracking open consciousness.

Chris Rose: 41:48 So, you’re exploring this with friends on the massage table, including oral sex. So much of how I think about the erotic touch work is we learn massage skills, we activate our hands as tools of pleasure, as tools of communicating intentional touch. And then we bring those skills to the genitals, to the anus. So, were you conscious of the moment where you started massaging the cock? How did these strokes start articulating themselves in your hands?

Joseph Kramer: 42:21 Well, first of all, the cock had a real prominence for me, right from the time I was four years old. So, it was never a handjob. I’ve heard of handjobs and finishing up and releases. But I never saw that as important. I thought, there’s a masterpiece to be created here. There’s a symphony, and orchestra. There’s all this pleasure. There’s connection.

Joseph Kramer: 42:47 As a masseur, and during the 80s, I gave maybe three to five thousand massages. I called myself a massage monk. And what I learned is touch isn’t a mechanical thing. Touching tissue, and my hands are feeling something and they’re reacting, and there’s this communication back and forth. So, there’s a language that’s happening. It’s not about a thought. It’s a language where I would touch and there would be a reaction that said go deeper or lighter or move around or what to do.

Joseph Kramer: 43:29 And what happened is more and more, the reaction I got from people I touched was, I don’t know how you did it, but you did exactly what my body needed. And when I thought of someplace I wanted you to go, you went there. So, that’s this communication. Not just on the penis, but on the whole body. Yes, when I touch penises, people go, I’ve never been touched like that before. Oh, my god.

Joseph Kramer: 43:55 There was one more element, and that was when I’m doing these mushrooms, my partner out here said a friend of his from college was teaching a breath class and it was going to last a year. I didn’t know what this was, but there were classes in body, in touch, in all kinds of things happening, so I said, let’s do it. It was a year in rebirthing breath, which is a breath where there’s no pause at the top or bottom of the breath. Or it could be slow or faster. But it’s no pause at the top or bottom.

Joseph Kramer: 44:35 When you do that, there’s a high, there’s an orgasmic feeling. So, all of a sudden, I had another tool. And I recognized that running was very similar to this because you breathe, but you use the oxygen up in the running. In rebirthing, in this breathing, you get the oxygen in and it isn’t used up, it goes through the blood to the cells, and there’s this ecstatic feeling of more and more vibrancy. That’s what the oxygen does.

Joseph Kramer: 45:06 So, with mushrooms, and touch, and blowjobs, and breathing, those were all the things we were exploring in 79 and 80.

Chris Rose: 45:18 And the breath workshop was with Claire Arneson, was that right.

Joseph Kramer: 45:22 She taught breath that year. And she did individual sessions with me. In the individual sessions, her background wasn’t Catholic, and she says, you have lot of rigidity in your body. And this is after I’m running every day for 15 years and I’m doing mushrooms and I’m learning this breath. But the breath, I learned there were places in my body, it wasn’t going.

Joseph Kramer: 45:49 And it’s, as you said, self-regulation that doesn’t serve us. So, I was regulating. And I thought, if I’m regulating my breath, I’m probably regulating sexual pleasure, also. I’m regulating all kinds of things that I don’t know about, which is what [Yeung 00:46:07] calls the shadow. Things that are influencing us that we’re not even aware of, habits.

Joseph Kramer: 46:14 But what happened is a lot of the people I worked on for massage work came in and they would come to me and they’d go, oh, they wanted to be jerked off because that was part of massage, they thought. I’d go, no, this is not what I’m about. That was in my private life. With this, I’m a professional masseur. Until one day, somebody said, you give the best Catholic massage, and that jolted me. I said, what do you mean? He says, you don’t touch the genitals. Other masseurs in 79, 80, 81 touched genitals.

Joseph Kramer: 46:49 Anyway, I remember the exact day. I was doing acupressure on someone. And I asked him to start breathing. I had not really used this breath in my sessions. But I was holding points on his body. He started breathing, I could see he was getting ecstatic. My other experiences with breathing and someone else had been blowjobs. But I wasn’t going to give him a blowjob. So I said, I’ve been trying this with some of my friends, I told him, where I touch your penis, I was so clinical, while you’re breathing to see what that would be like. I remember he was a therapist. He said okay, let’s try this.

Joseph Kramer: 47:34 So, I did with my hands what I was doing with my mouth and had him breathe. And he went into a place that I was going into with my friends, but we did it regularly. This is the first time he’d ever done this. And he goes, oh, my god, I just went someplace. I had an experience I’ve never had before. He came back every week. Four sessions, I remember.

Joseph Kramer: 48:01 But then I started thinking, maybe I should do this professionally. And it’s not handjobs. It’s not just giving somebody a release. It’s giving somebody a waking up because the breath circulates the excitement through the body. So, that was the beginning. I then decided, I need to advertise erotic massage, that’s what I’m doing. And the gay papers in San Francisco, where I got most of my clients, I lived in Oakland across the bay, I asked them to have a category called erotic massage. They go, no. I said wait, you have hustlers, escorts that are offering all kinds of kinky services and then you have massage. Finally, they said yes, an erotic massage category started which became very lucrative for them. And lots of people came to me.

Joseph Kramer: 48:52 I explored erotic massage with my hands, with breathing. And I found the breathing got people into their body. A lot of people disassociate when they go into sex, or they freeze from mild or major trauma. Or they’re distracted regularly. But whatever’s going on, if you’re breathing in a conscious pattern, you have to stay present to breathe. And I could tell right when they go away. So, I’m giving them the session, they just went away, and I would call them back. So, the breathing became this time when they … That’s why people had amazing experiences because they couldn’t eject out of the experience when they’re breathing.

Joseph Kramer: 49:39 I think the breath also circulated and relaxed and was pleasurable, but it was also a clue to me how I could keep somebody present for this erotic experience. And a lot of people, the erotic experience for them is ejaculation. A lot of men, and probably orgasm for women. But in this process, they had to pay attention to this whole process.

Joseph Kramer: 50:03 And I quoted a Catholic saint, often, Saint Therese of Lisieux. She said heaven is all the way to heaven. That was my statement that heaven isn’t out here. It’s just this whole process. So, that’s where Daoist erotic massage started. Yet, it was in my private practice, and I was quiet about it. I wasn’t ashamed of it, but I was private about it. I was advertised in papers, but I had no thought of like I taught massage, of teaching erotic massage or anything like this at this time. It was several years later.

Chris Rose: 50:49 I hope you enjoyed part one of my interview with Joe Kramer. Next week, we’re going to talk a lot more about erotic massage and teaching erotic massage in classrooms all around the world. Join us next week for part two of my conversation with Joseph Kramer, or visit us at pleasuremechanics.com for our complete podcast archive. And go to pleasuremechanics.com/free for our free online course. I’m Chris from pleasuremechanics.com wishing you a lifetime of pleasure. Cheers.

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